Do Renault now sell their batteries? - Renault Z.E. Forum
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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Do Renault now sell their batteries?


.. well, for the Kangoo at least.

In the optional extras for the Kangoo is now listed:

Quote:
ELECTRIC VEHICLE SPECIFIC
Battery Invoice + 8880.03
Charging cable 16A (J1772) 6m + 75.00
Charging cable EVSE for domestic use 10Amp + 345.00
Z.E Voice + 75.00
'Battery Invoice' sounds like you'd be buying the battery, to me?
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 07:13 AM
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

Hmmm. That would be new. First I've heard.
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 10:37 AM
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

It appears so, but only on the vans. Perhaps leasing isn't what most companies actually wanted after all?

At least people have the option, though 8,800 for a battery seems a little steep to me!
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 02:44 PM
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

The battery is the most expensive part of the car. Van prices are usually ExVAT.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 06:02 PM
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

Just seems unrealistic to me. If one was to rent the battery at 75 per month, it would take the entire life of the car before Renault would even start to break even, let alone the inclusive breakdown cover, discounted hire car etc. No chance. It's worth 5,000 tops.

Or put it another way, the Leaf is selling at 16,000 without the battery or 21,000 with. If the Renault battery was worth 8,000, then the Fluence for sale at 8,000 would be worth 16,000 second hand, and it just isn't.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

300~400 per kWh is about the going rate.

Bear in mind that we do not know the actual capacity of the Renault batteries. I saw an early press item in which Renault let out that they were using only 70% of the batteries capacity. That would make it, actually, a 31kWh battery if that is what they actually decided on.

It makes sense if you look at the masses - Fluence battery pack is 260kg, Leaf is 200kg. So we might be looking, instead, at 22kWh of a 31kWh battery pack being used in the former, and 21kWh out of 24kWh for the Leaf (this is no secret).

Nissan quote the actual battery pack size rather than the usable capacity, whereas Renault do the reverse. This would help explain why Nissan say in their handbook and warranty conditions that the Leaf pack should not be routinely charged to 100%, and, apparently, they provide a 'helpful' 80% charge 'limiter' that you can set when you plug it in for a charge. No such limitations on Renault batteries - and yet they are leasing and therefore remain the owners so should be the more risk averse (whereas it is the Leaf owners that should be more concerned, yet Nissan seem to want to give them this helpful advice).

I reckon Renault batteries are actually 30kWh packs to help with long-term life, and also as they degrade they have probably set the software to eat into the reserve capacity, for a while, thereby giving the impression that the pack last longer. ... It's just a hunch, but just consider the battery pack mass, and it explains the apparent cost discrepancy.

The other cost difference is that Renault batteries have some form of active temperature management (TMS) in them, whereas Leaf doesn't have any (very bad!).

Say 250/kWh [for the sake of argument] x 31kWh = 8k + 1k TMS?

For Leaf x 24kWh = 6k

This is all just a hunch....
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-30-2013, 02:37 AM
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

That makes sense and explains why Renault have insisted on a lease only model. Renault could also be hiding some of the pack cost in the vehicle prices. I've read there is very little margin on Fluence. That's why new ones are all but impossible to find at a discount. At the same time Nissan are able to offer discounts on Leaf and still make a profit.

Nissan and Renault use the same battery chemistry. The original Japan built Leaf even used battery cells from the same manufacturer as Renault.

Renault guarantee slightly more capacity than Nissan too. (75% vs 70%)

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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 09-30-2013, 10:21 AM
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RE: Do Renault now sell their batteries?

I always wondered why Fluence owners could get over that magic 100 miles per charge whereas Leaf owners, even experienced hyper-milers, rarely get near.

It also makes sense as Renault designed the Fluence as a taxi for Israel and the battery would be worked HARD. Also with battery swap, the battery itself could potentially have a harder life than a battery in a Leaf. There are reports that the Leaf taxi experiment in Japan hasn't gone so well, with many drivers using blankets to keep warm and suffering range 'issues' after higher miles.

But it's the old Betamax vs VHS all over again. One was superior but failed, the other was cheap.
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