Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing? - Renault Z.E. Forum
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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-18-2014, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

Just read the 'Transport Evolved' piece on the expectation that Renault might be about to offer a purchase option for the battery (specifically on the Zoe). This will be great news for the detractors who hate the battery lease concept. Personally the lease works for me, as it brought the capital cost of entry to an affordable level, but there could be repercussions.

!. Will this change the battery value. My Kangoo lease values the battery at £7,800, (which I am obligated to insure) and, compared to Nissan's promise to Leaf owners on the cost of replacement, is out of kilter.

2. A more competitive price on the battery would significantly alter the capital versus rental premium ratio. i.e. what appeared to be an acceptable deal on signing might look a little less so when the market value of the battery is revealed.

Conclusion: I think Renault would come under a lot of pressure to review existing battery lease terms and rates if they do offer a purchase option for new customers. They are, however, quite within their rights to resist....
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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-18-2014, 09:21 AM
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

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Originally Posted by GSP Wagon
compared to Nissan's promise to Leaf owners on the cost of replacement
Nissan UK have made no such promise.

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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-18-2014, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

Sorry, you are right. I saw it online and just regurgitated it without verification. A newbie's error.
[My bad. I'll try again. It has been 'muted' on the net (and we all know how reliable that is) that Nissan 'might' offer (in the U S of A) new for old Leaf batteries at a 'suggested' cost of $5,500 plus fitting and taxes (The old batteries being given an nominal trade-in value of $1,000). Some clever Journo got hold of a calculator, converted to sterling and Bingo! 'New Leaf Batteries for £xxx in the UK' headlines (And, of course, in the 'Sunshine' States there are alleged issues with heat degradation, which would not be applicable in the UK.) It's a fair cop, this does not make for a good benchmark retail price comparison, hence the parentheses.]:

My point or query is: how will Renault price a battery for purchase and tread the line between an acceptable market price for buyers and the perceived value we leaseholders think we are supporting with our monthly payments? And might this give existing leaseholders cause to re-evaluate their deal?

Does anyone know what the actual value of a new leased battery is? - Genuine question; I only know my insured value.

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post #4 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-19-2014, 08:09 AM
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

No reason to believe they think the value is anything other than the insured value they put on the battery, which is detailed in the lease. Around £9k for the Fluence battery.

You can see the differential pricing between Leaf Flex and non-Flex though. That is plain enough. They seem to be selling the battery for ~£6k extra. Surely they are making the biggest loss on the non-Flex - recall that Ghosn has recently let out that Leaf is not yet a 'break-even' car - they are losing money on every sale.
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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-20-2014, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

Thank you Donald. I think you are probably right, but here's the thing: taking the new value to be £7300, I am paying £65 (net of vat) per month with a maximum term of 72 months = £4680 - so one has to guess that Renault are factoring a residual value for their battery at 72 months old of £3120. Coincidentally 72 months takes my contract into 2020. If one then looks at Ellon Musk and Panasonic's projection for battery cost by that date of sub $200 per Kw h, a new battery then would only cost £2860, i.e less than the residual on the six year old battery in my Kangoo. This suggest to me that the battery lease is currently very good value to the customer, but potentially unsustainable to Renault.

OK, so the numbers are all variable. £7300 battery price is probably retail not cost. £65 per month should see deductions for roadside assist and the finance company's interest charge. $200 per Kw h may prove unattainable. And, yes, Tesla battery strategy is different to the rest of the market. Tesla could also go the way of the DOT.Com bubble,,,,,,

Now I must stop thinking aloud....
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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-21-2014, 01:51 AM
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

No law against thinking out loud (yet!).

You can see why leasing the battery is actually a give-away at these rates. It is strange that folks are blind to it.

One way or the other, the future is a Big Mystery. So why not fix your future costs by leasing, which is not at all a disproportionate price to pay to an outright buy and possibly going to be cheaper too.

People aren't thinking it through logically and are resisting battery lease with their hearts rather than heads.
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post #7 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-21-2014, 02:02 PM
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

My contracted value for the battery is stipulated as £0 (they never filled the value in,Mao that's what I insured it at). What does yours say?
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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-21-2014, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donald
It is strange that folks are blind to it.

One way or the other, the future is a Big Mystery

People aren't thinking it through logically and are resisting battery lease with their hearts rather than heads.
I agree, it is strange. Some thoughts as to why...

- I have never heard someone refer to their hire purchase/finance payments as ' Oooh! That's so many tanks of fuel per month' Yet with a battery lease (just finance on part of the vehicle, after all) it's immediately compared to the fuel saving, and couched in terms of 'Might as well just buy fuel'. Own goal [undefined=undefined]number one[/undefined] for the marketing department.

- Basic human psychology; deny a person a thing and their heart's desire becomes that thing. Renault categorically state; the lessee will NEVER own the battery. Own goal [undefined=undefined]number two[/undefined].

- The battery lease document itself is a bit of a mystery. I asked to see the terms of the lease and was told by two dealers that they they could only generate the document if I put in an order. "I order you to generate a copy" was not quite what they meant, but one dealer photocopied another customer's lease and the second gave me part of a standard car finance lease and, when challenged about it, swore it was for the battery.

The wording of the lease is full of incredibly threatening and aggressive language - you will do this , won't do that and if 'we' the company don't like it, you forfeit the battery, we will interfere with your vehicle to stop it charging and we will pursue you. And that is before you even get to the ambiguities and/or complexities of termination, transfer, variation of charges, insurance liabilities etc. etc.

The battery lease and it's presentation is a dog's dinner. My guess is Renault marketing just told RCI to please themselves in writing the battery agreement. Own goal [undefined=undefined]number three[/undefined], methinks!!!

With this tirade of negatives the positives (there are plenty of them too) seem to get lost.

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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-21-2014, 06:49 PM
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSP Wagon
... I asked to see the terms of the lease and was told by two dealers that they they could only generate the document if I put in an order. ...The wording of the lease is full of incredibly threatening and aggressive language..etc...
Couldn't agree with you more.

Interesting claim that you had to put an order in first. That's a classic unenforceable contract situation (see Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd).

The battery terms used to be available on the internet, but the one's I pulled did differ slightly from the contract I signed. In the end I suggested that they were in breach of their own contract because I had not received 'connected services' which formed (at least, on mine) part of the contract.

I agree. Hopeless, and badly planned. Companies don't seem to realise that the contract agreement stage can put a potential customer right off. The contract needs to be as polished and as 'accessible' as any other stage of the sales pitch.

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post #10 of 62 (permalink) Old 10-22-2014, 03:53 AM
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RE: Are Renault about to capitulate on compulsory battery leasing?

But isn't the lack of 'connected services' your wish?

Their ability to provide the required password is the open sesame to the services. I doubt you could claim the contract is invalid because everyone else got it to work, but you!
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