2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone. - Renault Z.E. Forum
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-07-2014, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

Now all gone, sold for $3,600.

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?...erplace&cat=23

Interesting info in the adverts. Seems that they are the same modules as Leaf after all. 65Ah.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-07-2014, 08:14 PM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

That's interesting. I think $3600 is a pretty good deal for a new battery. Here's hoping RUK flog them off at a bargain price as well!
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 03:40 AM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

Maybe not if an 'as is' no return item... Quite a risk for a consumer! Shame they think it an 'Influenza' ! US$ 2k would have been my limit.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 04:02 AM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

Still a bargain.

So many potential uses too, including off grid solar pv storage.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 05:53 AM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

At that price, though, I'd take a punt. Break even would only be about three years.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

but at 3 years old, the battery will be 6 years old, which is the time when a battery lease really starts making sense as an insurance policy against battery death. I'd not have it. Far too many risks.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 07:27 AM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

But if the battery really is that useless, then Renault will lose a fortune - the first failed battery won't have recouped anything its full value via the lease before having to be replaced by another which Renault will have had to keep in good condition for years.

If the situation really is that bad, we battery renters are going to be laughing at the Leaf crowd within a year or two.

As I've often said, I think the battery could yet prove to be as big a bargain as the car.

I wonder whether Renault would let anyone back into the rental scheme who somehow managed to buy a battery outright that subsequently failed.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricDave
But if the battery really is that useless, then Renault will lose a fortune - the first failed battery won't have recouped anything its full value via the lease before having to be replaced by another
Well, we are often prone to treat these companies like they don't really know what they are talking about. Look at it another way, say they do and they have made a calculation that a 6k annual mileage battery will last 8 years. If they give a retail price of ~8.5k for insurance then that would mean the cost to them is probably ~6 to 7k. Divide 7k by 8 and so they figure they should charge at least 875 pa. So they rent it out at 925 to cover admin, they get the battery, which is still quite valuable after it degrades below 75% and can likely be remanufactured at a fraction of the original cost, and they are still quids in, based on an 8 year life.

Anyone that has ever experienced rechargeable batteries, which is basically everyone, will know some last longer than others. So some packs will last only 6 years, some 10 years. A few outliers may only last 4 years or as long as 12 years, but this is all within the maths Renault is working to.

So, no, I don't think the pricing is geared towards the presumption of a much longer life than 8 years. I'd tend to think they are expecting, say, 25% failures at year 6 and 50% at year 8. At those figures, they're still no making money but they aren't losing it. I don't think the battery rental is really seen as a money-making opportunity but a service to go along with the money-making car sales, so in that was they see it as an incentivisation to reduce the purchase price (although others/many clearly disagree with their approach).

LMO batteries just aren't designed to last too long. It is not a case of 'if' they fail, but simply 'when'. If you think through the above points, you'll probably come to the conclusion that anyone who buys when they could lease (for pretty much the same money as purchasing) are nuts. I don't know for sure, no one does just yet, but I suspect the number of happy EV owners with +10yr old LMO batteries will be small.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 11:03 AM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

Actually, who says Renault actually have spent all this money on batteries? They could easily have negotiated a commercial deal with the manufacturer and RCI is acting as the intermediary. They have 4 different vehicles - what manufacturer would not bite their band off for a slice of the action?

Clearly we'll never know - but whilst I may be in the minority, it was the lease that made me go for the Twizy (then Fluence). Without it, I'm not prepared to take the risk on my own.
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2014, 11:22 AM
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RE: 2nd hand Better Place battery packs, all gone.

Most major car manufacturers rely on the "Just In Time" principle of delivering stock to the assembly line. As the Fluence ZE was built in small batches as orders came in I doubt Renault felt the need to overstock on these items. BetterPlace was different, they needed copious stocks to be held to satisfy demand at their robotic swap stations. Hence it's BP who have been clearing surplus. If we're waiting for Renault to do likewise we're probably in for disappointment. Ah well, at least it got us a bit excited!

Living as I do close to an MOD depot (am I allowed to give away that information?) I am amazed at the continual stream of HGV's from all over Europe bringing in stock on a daily basis. Those squaddies must get through a helluva lot of socks!
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