7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference? - Renault Z.E. Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-13-2014, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
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7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

Dear all,

My name is Jonathan and we own a market garden and farm shop in Oxfordshire and are looking to buy a used Kangoo ze van for our veg box delivery service. We've just narrowly missed a mint ex-demo example 2011 plate with 3300 miles for 6000 + vat and so are now looking at this http://vans.autotrader.co.uk/used-va...499d9793744c0e. It's the same money, has twice the mileage but is a year newer. Unlike the other one, it has a few scratches but the dealer says he will sort these out. I wondered if anybody could please help me with a few questions:
1. Renault say they will replace cells only once the battery capacity has reduced to 75% of original. It has done a high mileage (by EV standards!) for it's age, will this have brought it significantly closer to the threshold than the one we missed?
2. Does any one know if there's any graph/data available showing typical battery degradation versus time?
3. The dealer states that following a full charge (they have been using it for deliveries themselves), the on-board display shows 80 miles available. Is this what you'd expect if the battery was still nearly as new?
4. Finally, although the model number has remained the same, I glean from http://www.vanuser.co.uk/?p=1665 that there may have been tweaks and improvements between the 2011 and 2012 models. Does anyone know for sure if this is the case and if so, what the improvements were?

Many thanks,

Jonathan
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-13-2014, 05:47 PM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

The van you gave the link for is no longer for sale and the advert removed.

Very few owners are at high mileage but there are many Nissan Leafs with 60,000+ miles with only 15% loss of capacity. I think you need not worry too much with the Renault. The main concern is the reducing range as the capacity is lost. The 80 miles range is probably in ideal conditions with minimal a/c or heating. What sort of mileage per charge do you expect out of the van? It is reported that in winter people generally get about 50+ miles out of an electric car (Zoe/Fluence/Leaf). That could reduce with a 25% capacity loss.

If you're doing 20, 30 or upto 50 miles a day then the van is ideal. If you're regularly doing runs of 50,60 or 80 miles a day then you might need to think long and hard. I guess it also depends who's driving. If it were a trusted employee then you'll be fine, but if it's just whoever is nearest, then they could have the heat up on full in winter, hammering the van and getting 30 mile range for a 40 mile job.

Don't discount the electric van, but ignore the 80/100 mile range given by dealers. In summer at 25c on a nice steady run you'll get that, but much less likely at other times.

It could also be a great PR opportunity for your business. Perhaps consider using a 100% renewable electricity supplier like Ecotricity or Goodenergy?
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-13-2014, 07:38 PM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

Hi Jonathan,
I bought a 2012 'year of manufacture' new, this summer ('14 plate). Advantages being; full warranty period,100% capital write down and dealer finance if required - all for a fantastic price, so I didn't need the finance. The deals are out there...

It is a great van.

Points 1) and 2): on the battery lease deal you really don't need to worry about degradation. If you look at the battery payback period (assumed battery cost divided by rental charge) Renault are not expecting problems with batteries for at least 6 years, otherwise they are going to be seriously out of pocket. Have faith...

Point 3). As GrumpyCabbie says RANGE is the issue. Top ups during the day are not very realistic with a slow charger, as in the kangoo, (at less than 10 miles per hour charging gain) you wait a long time in order just to run out again very quickly!!. But if you can do the 'first' 50 to 60 miles of each day in the ZE and charge up overnight, the benefits are terrific. 80 miles showing just means the dealer has been pottering around the car lot, or I have a duff van:- >10degreesC, no heating, 60 miles is a doddle without lighting up the reserve warning, but since the weather has changed to <10degreesC, a little heat and fan and lights and wipers...well today saw the amber warning on at 46 miles.

Have you driven one? They are a real joy, smooth, nimble and genuinely stress free.

Hope this helps!!!

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-14-2014, 05:03 AM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

That's very informative GSP. Do you have a report of your vehicle and experiences you could post? Along with pictures? What do you use the van for? I imagine the range limitation restrict the van for some occupations, but others I'm sure it would excel. And do you use it for PR purposes at all?
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

Thanks all for the informative replies.

Apologies the correct link for my OP is Kangoo ZE Bristol. We never do more than 40 miles per day so it would be the ideal solution for us. Interestingly, I called Renault and they quoted range from new as 78 miles in "ideal conditions", dropping to 60 in the "extreme cold". However, it does sound like Renault have stretched it rather and, as GrumpyCabbie says "ideal conditions" are the nearly the most ideal possible (short of your entire journey being downhill with a tailwind! ;-)). In practice, the van is only a serious contender provided your daily runs are less than 50 miles.

As plenty of used examples are appearing on the market, we've decided to wait for one with lower mileage and with the brown melamine lining in the back as opposed to the plain plywood as this would be more hygienic (as in Melamine lined kangoo).

Yes GrumpyCabbie we agree it is a great PR opportunity for us - we already use Ecotricity across the business and will be asking them for some stickers for the van as soon as we get one!

On my point (4) above, I'm going to call our local Renault EV dealership tomorrow to see if they have any info regarding tweaks to the ML20 phase I since its release.

GSP - where did you buy your Van please?

Thanks,

Jonathan
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 07:35 PM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

Hi Jonathan,

Mine came from Dales who are in Redruth Cornwall. They were really fantastic to deal with.

I also went to my local Renault Dealer, who to my surprise were also able to source another unregistered pre facelift vehicle but could not match the price even after I added back the delivery cost (630miles on a transporter!!). It would be worth asking your nearest dealer, as I am sure they all have access to a national stock list, so if there are any still out there they should show up.

I would hazard a guess that the melamine is applied over the ply lining (otherwise wouldn't it sound like a wobble board all day long?). It would not be expensive to retro fit in any case.

One of the biggest surprises to me is that nobody notices that it is electric. I guess they just see a familiar white van and it doesn't occur to them that it is not making any noise or spewing fumes. Personally I love the anonymity, but maybe not the PR shouting impact others might want.

Your mileage requirement looks ideal. I do not know how Renault think they can use 106 miles in their official literature and then not expect potential customers to walk when they tell them the real range is optimally (for which read 'at best') 70 miles. I think it must be very damaging to sales. I see that La Poste who are the Kangoo's biggest customer appear to work on 70 kilometers in terms of the applicable mail route distance. I challenged my postie to do his round in a ZE, but it turns out his round is 72 miles, which would be a challenge indeed.

GrumpyCabbie asked what I used the Kangoo for. The short answer is everything!! Tractor wheel to the repair shop, collecting animal feed, transporting the dogs, pallets, furniture delivery, ironically taking fuel cans to the garage for the small tools, and everything domestic from shopping to the recycling run. The biggest problem is availability because the other half nicks it all the time!!!

Good luck with the search!!

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 02:46 AM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

On the road nobody has noticed my car - it's only when it's plugged in that everyone suddenly turns into a rubber-necker.

One thing is certainly true of long term ownership and that is the appreciation you get for just how more pleasant a place the roads would be in terms of noise and air pollution if more people had EVs. There needs to be an 'XUD moment' (the XUD engine in the Peugeot 205 and 305 of the early 1980s being unarguably the single biggest influence on mainstream diesel ownership) for buyers to get on board. As yet that moment hasn't come.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 04:35 AM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eep
One thing is certainly true of long term ownership and that is the appreciation you get for just how more pleasant a place the roads would be in terms of noise and air pollution if more people had EVs.
I remember when I was in the taxi game one night when I was sat at the traffic lights. There was my Prius, one other Prii and a Lexus CT200h and nothing else. I wound the window down and...silence. Lovely. No diesel clatter, no squeaking water pump or fan belt, no burbling of a dodgy exhaust to annoy, just pure silence.

It's how it should be.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-18-2014, 07:52 AM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

Took my Fluence in for a service - the Service manager said it was the first one he had seen, and the sales guys were ogling it. Nothing like the Zoe, this one's BIG! Summed it up really.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-20-2014, 04:11 PM
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RE: 7000 miles vs 3300 miles - much difference?

..and you trusted them with it .... :}
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