Charging Options - Renault Z.E. Forum
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 09-23-2012, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Charging Options

[Discussion moved here from the Dealers/Milton Keynes thread]

Quote:
Originally Posted by umberto
Quote:
Originally Posted by umberto
EDIT: 40 A with 3 phases shall be correct!
Correction:

The 22 kW loading is 3 phases with 32 A.
The 44 kW loading is 3 phases with 63 A.
The standard loading is 1 phase with 16 A

I remember that there was a 11 kW wallbox but this option seems to be gone. I'm afraid a 22 kW wallbox will be too costly to be installed in my garage. :-(

Regards
Umbi

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 09-23-2012, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Charging Options

Sorry for the orphan thread - I was halfway through starting it when I got called away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
He also went to some effort to explain the charging system in detail. I didn't fully understand so this is something I'll research further.
Umberto's post above has prompted me to blow the cobwebs out from my memories of college classes on electricity and start researching this! Everyone feel free to correct me if I haven't got it right.

So, simple electrical theory tells us:

Power (Watts) = Current (Amps) x Voltage (V)

[In fact, in any real system it's not that perfect due to losses, etc., so is better represented for a single phase system by:

Power (Watts) = Current (Amps) x Voltage (V) x Power Factor

and for a three phase system its 3x this value (so long as the voltage is the phase voltage, 230V, otherwise its sqrt(3)x the line voltage, 400V).
But for now let's keep it simple]

So after a bit of playing around in Excel I think we get this:


Renault Zoe Charging Options - MyRenaultZoe.com by Trevor EV, on Flickr

This seems to match what's been published before pretty well. But it's all nominal, i.e. perfect, so real world values (e.g. charge times) will be at least 10% worse than these ideal figures.

What it tells me is that without making the jump to 3 phase, it might be worth getting a 32A single phase chargepoint installed at home, as it would be perfectly possible to go out in the morning for a long distance, come home and charge during the afternoon (2-3 hours) and have most of your range back if you needed to go out again in the evening.

It certainly seems to be an option on the PODPoint chargers:

http://www.pod-point.com/markets/ev-...rging-at-home/

400km in a day should become achievable (or 2-300km with a comfortable safety margin).
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-03-2012, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Charging Options

I've now written this up for the website:

http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/zo...tion/charging/
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 05:35 AM
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RE: Charging Options

How feasible is it to charge the ZOE outside? I've just gone and measured up my garage, and ZOE will only just fit! Considering we're using it for storage of all sorts of stuff, I'm thinking it might be better to sit the ZOE on the drive and run the charge cable out of the garage door.

Naturally I'm wary of vandalism and all that, but are there any other considerations to be made about charging the car outside overnight?
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 05:00 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Charging Options

I'd be surprised if it really didn't fit as it's just supermini sized. Anyway, it's very common to charge on the drive but it is done by fitting an external (weatherproof) charging point so that you can use the vehicle's standard charging cable same as if you were inside the garage.

There's an example here:



That's a British Gas example used for a Nissan LEAF, but BG are also partners with Renault so it would likely be identical. More details on this one from here:

http://www.daddacool.co.uk/2012/08/b...easier-ev.html
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 09:50 AM
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RE: Charging Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
I'd be surprised if it really didn't fit as it's just supermini sized. Anyway, it's very common to charge on the drive but it is done by fitting an external (weatherproof) charging point so that you can use the vehicle's standard charging cable same as if you were inside the garage.

There's an example here:



That's a British Gas example used for a Nissan LEAF, but BG are also partners with Renault so it would likely be identical. More details on this one from here:

http://www.daddacool.co.uk/2012/08/b...easier-ev.html
Ta for your ever-useful insight! Definitely would be a ridiculously tight squeeze in my garage... It's new-build, and so the garages are impractically small so they can fit more in. Of course, I never bothered measuring the garage before buying the house!
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 12:06 PM
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RE: Charging Options

Quote:
What it tells me is that without making the jump to 3 phase, it might be worth getting a 32A single phase chargepoint installed at home,
All true, except I don't see a 32A single phase mode in the list Umburto posted. No idea if Umburto's post is correct. I've been searching for good documentation for the Chameleon charger but haven't found anything yet.

Single phase 16A charging is the same as the 3.5kW charger on-board the Kangoo Z.E. and Fluence Z.E.



[hr]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
I
That's a British Gas example used for a Nissan LEAF, but BG are also partners with Renault so it would likely be identical.
It is. I was shown the identical charger at Renault Liverpool.

The BG charger has the cable attached. I don't know what connector is on the car end of the Zoe. Might not be a J1772 connector, in which case that wall unit won't work.




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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Charging Options

I wrote up my understanding of Zoe charging on a blog page here:

http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/zo...tion/charging/

I believe this example EVSE is actually by Chargemaster and is just rebadged by British Gas - if so, it can be ordered with a Type 2 cable for the Zoe, and it is officially compatible with the Zoe for charging at up to 7kW:

http://www.chargemasterplc.com/index...ications-home/

and if my table on the charging page is correct then it must be supplying 32A.

The situation with the various charging standards and connectors is confused so I'm thinking I'll do some research into that and write it up.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Charging Options

I've added a write-up of connectors and cables:

http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/zo...tion/charging/
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 06:00 AM
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RE: Charging Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor
I wrote up my understanding of Zoe charging on a blog page here:
I looked at your blog page. Well done, but a few of the numbers are slightly off. Your math is correct but the assumptions are wrong.


Fuses and circuit breakers exist to protect the wiring. The 13Amp fuse in a BS1363 plug is there to protect the cable if the device shorts out. It is there to prevent fires and melted insulation.

The ESVE BS1363 cable draws 10 Amps. It is in the spec sheet for the Kangoo Z.E. and Fluence. Renault doesn't give a power rating but it is probably close to 2kW. (Edit: Your blog is correct, but the spread sheet above says 13A)

The 220V 16Amp single phase Type 2 connection charges at either 3kW or 3.5kW. The Kangoo spec sheet says 3kW but I've seen 3.5kW elsewhere. Kangoo spec sheet says 0% to 100% takes 8 hours.


The Zoe has a 22kWH battery pack. Presumably it uses the same cells as the pack in the Z.E. cars but configured differently. At these lower power levels, Zoe charge times will be the same as the Fluence and Kangoo Z.E. 8 hours for 0% to 100%. A real 5-7 hour charge time is likely since none of us want to coast home on a dead pack.



The charger should have power factor correction. I'd be very surprised if it isn't. But yes there are losses. A good switch mode power supply works at about 90% efficiency.

I take everything on the Renault UK website with a grain of salt. There are some obvious errors on the Zoe specs. The van retail price book I got from Renault Liverpool last weekend does not agree on some details with the one I downloaded from the web. Renault is not alone here. I've found errors from other manufacturers. Until people get their cars we won't know for certain what the on-board charger can really do. Even then, there could be updates and software patches.

I've been told informally that the Kangoo Z.E. will get the 2nd Generation charger from the Zoe sometime in 2013. I was also told that the charger would have a 7kW charge from a 32-Amp 220V 1-phase connection.

Having said that, I've seen conflicting information about support for 7kW 32Amps single phase. It could be the charger design has changed.

I found this digram a French blog -- It was from a Renault display at a recent auto show.

It shows 3kW to 44kW 3Phase AC using a type 2 connector, 3 to 22kW 3-Phase AC using a new type 4 connector, 3 to 7kW on a type 1 and 3kW from a French wall plug. Also shows 50kW CHAdeMO which as far as I know, Zoe won't support. Or will it???



There was also a photo of a Zoe charging from a Type 3 plug. Let me see if I can find it.
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