VW e-Up; a bargain? - Renault Z.E. Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 08:49 AM Thread Starter
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VW e-Up; a bargain?

The VW e-Up has been released and appears a bargain at 19,250.

Sure it's a small car, but so is the Zoe and the VW price includes the battery.

First impressions appear good.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/review...ad-test/63011/
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 02:30 PM
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

I took a look at the brochure on the VW site some weeks back (it has been advertised there a while). I paid scant attention after it was suggesting a 90 mile range, because we all know that translates into less than half that in winter with decent heating on and at motorway speeds. I can easily get the Fluence to under 50 mile range at a 70mph run home in winter with 24C heat set (so I don't usually do this, unless I am cold and in a hurry!).

But even a typical real-world 60 mile range from my 115 mile rated Fluence suggests a range insufficient for even my modest commuting needs.

Of far more interest to me is that the XL1 has been destined for 2014 production release! If that comes up with some good numbers and is just like the original then I would be interested in that, but unfortunately I am not well endowed with sufficient capital assets and I can only expect this is a dream.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

I too was initially put off by the range quoted BUT the article quotes figures as follows;

"Volkswagen suggests an estimated range of between 74 and 102 miles in summer and between 49 and 75 miles in winter."

Which is nearer the Leaf and ever so slightly down on the Fluence.

I also liked the part about the brakes lights coming on when using the more severe regen braking options.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 07:24 PM
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

The NEDC cycle shows it up to be 92 miles. Now, that cycle is, as we know, not exactly 'real-world' (though there again I've been able to get NEDC figures out of all my cars, with perhaps not an inconsiderable effort), but one would tend to presume it remains in proportion with the results from other cars. So here we have a car that, on NEDC figures, is 20% lower on range, and I've got no reason to believe it is otherwise in any other scenario.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 05:02 AM Thread Starter
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

Good point. So the NEDC for the Fluence is 115 miles, whereas 90-95 is achievable by taking it steady. So an NEDC of 92 miles probably equates to what, 70-75 miles with care? Hmmm, so that equals 60 driving normally. That does clip your wings somewhat as that is 60 miles total with little to spare.

A commute to York and back for me, a journey of 24 miles each way, would be pushing it in winter. Get a diversion or stuck in traffic and I'm stuck. Hmmm. Manufacturers really needs to get away from this focus on a 100 mile NEDC range. It's so restrictive. It's effectively like putting 5 litres of fuel in my Prius. Drive with the heat on in -5c weather and I get 50 mpg and would just make the journey, drive in spring with the heat and a/c off and I could manage 70 mpg.

I so want EV's to work but do fear I see them through the ol' rose tinted specs. A bigger range of 150 miles NEDC is the minimum in my eyes as it facilitates normal driving for normal people in winter. Tesla so far are the only ones who appear to understand the issue - or are not influenced by a profitable petrol/diesel range.

e-Up 92 miles 20,000
Leaf 112 miles 21,000
Fluence 115 miles (is it still for sale?)
Tesla S 240 miles 50,000

Where's the BEV that costs 32,000 and will do 160 miles? Missing segment? Deliberately missing? Who would pay 30,000 for a Leaf that could do 160 miles? Why are BEVs just not selling in the numbers proposed? Personally I think it's the range or lack of. 60 miles in winter doesn't cut it for me.

(playing devils advocate)
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 06:08 AM
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

I just think EVs aren't selling because they are such an 'unknown' in most people's horizon, and the price isn't right. The VMs are simply not advertising the fact, the only exception being BMW, and they've sold out. Just letting folks know you sell a car might help!!

The Zoe is supposedly 130mi, but in practice seems to gain little on the Fluence, though it has the winter advantage of the heat pump heating. I think in summer there will be no difference. (The Zoe actually has a higher SCx (aero cross-section) of 0.75m^2 compared with the Fluence's 0.67m^2 [Leaf = 0.66m^2]).

I think the reality is VMs developing EVs haven't lived with the cars, so to them this sort of range (which is meant to be a 'per-day' range) seems OK. Reality is that there are other reasons you need more energy.

There are Chinese companies right now selling cars with 40ish kWh cars. I'm only slightly surprised they haven't started being imported, but if anyone were to look at the UK EV market then it would be an act of faith rather than good business.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

You mean they all get caught up in the figures rather than the practicality of them? On the drawing board 100 miles seems fine, but the winter reality of 55-65 miles is a different matter.

Being a northerner, I get a bit fed up with the continual focus on EV's being London Congestion Charge exempt. I appreciate it could be a selling point, but the numbers of drivers actually going into that zone is a drop in the UK driving ocean. I guess if all the marketing companies are in central London they believe it important, but I strongly think they're missing out on other sales here. The traditional car companies have focused their EV attentions on 'city' cars, rather than EV's. Tesla have been thinking outside the box, which is why there is big interest in the Tesla S. They're going about it the right way I think. Even my EV indifferent girlfriend thought the Tesla Roadster in Dallas was hot, whereas I liked that it was an EV
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 07:38 AM
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

Problem for London use is that it is only fit for a fraction of the population who have off-street parking fit to install a charger. OK, I suppose there is a radius of commuters that would fall into that category but if they live that close to London with private parking, I expect the congestion charge registers very low on their financial concerns! You'd not buy an EV in London in the forlorn hope that you will always be able to park on a street next to a charger!
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 05:08 PM
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrumpyCabbie
Tesla have been thinking outside the box, which is why there is big interest in the Tesla S. They're going about it the right way I think. Even my EV indifferent girlfriend thought the Tesla Roadster in Dallas was hot, whereas I liked that it was an EV
Until recently EVs have been sold on the basis they save you money and cause trees to grow faster. Or something like that anyway. The reality is of course that spending 14,000 on a new car is not saving money. So you can avoid the congestion charge and save a few quid each year on car tax but you've still bought a 14,000 car.

Manufacturers need to emphasis the aspects that most people (e.g. me) find appealing. The quiet and vibration free ride. The instant power delivery. The fact you can preheat the car on cold mornings. And so on.

They'll get it. And they'll also get that battery rental is wrong.

P.S. on the subject of the e-Up! - no go here, only four seats.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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RE: VW e-Up; a bargain?

I think you're right, but there are vested interests which is why they won't;

Imagine an add where they take their child to A&E suffering an asthma attack whilst in a smoggy city and focus on the clean local air quality of the EV?

Or driving to work in a frozen car, the cold seats, the peep hole in the front windscreen, the inside all misted up, shivering for the first couple miles and then the owner of an EV who has set their pre-heat climbing into a fully warm and defrosted car for their drive to work?

Or everyone talking loudly to their passengers as their diesel rattles and clatters at the lights, the cyclist behind being belched in smog and then the EV owners talking quietly as if in their living room, the only sound the quiet whisper of the a/c fan, the birds tweeting outside, the cyclist not getting belched?

I personally don't think the traditional car manufacturers really want EV's to work other than to tick a box or two to comply. Renault UK have fudged the release here. I'm still waiting for the email updates for both the Renault Zoe and Fluence that I requested about 2 or 3 years ago!


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