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-   Renault Fluence Z.E. General Discussion (https://www.renaultzeforum.com/forums/12-renault-fluence-z-e-general-discussion/)
-   -   Light bulb moment (https://www.renaultzeforum.com/forums/12-renault-fluence-z-e-general-discussion/665-light-bulb-moment.html)

pauldb38 08-11-2015 04:49 PM

Light bulb moment
 
To be honest surrounding the fluence i found allot of negativity and i began to regret my purchase, but today i got my new polar card for their charge points so off i trotted in my fluence to waitrose just on the edge of town. Plugged in no problems the charge began and after going round waitrose i decided to go in to town, thought i would check the charge status on my phone thinking this is great, after it finished a returned to the car as a leaf driver pulled in. I looked at the leaf against my fluence and so glad i didn't buy a leaf the fluence is far more classy and looks it against leaf 10 fold. As i drove away feeling the luxury and smoothness at that point i realized i made the right choice i just love driving it. The only real downside is no fast charging but maybe in the future if not through renault maybe a diy route fast charging becomes a option who knows ? but for now i will just enjoy the car its a joy. If connecting 3rd party chargers wasn't a issue already we have these options ?

Maybe add a 22kW (brusa) charger?

Or parallel 2x Elcon 2500W chargers?

Or install an Orion BMS incl. CHAdeMo support (contactors, inlet, etc)

For most of the time overnight charging is fine but the odd trip thats over 100 miles fat charging is the way to go.

Buzby 08-12-2015 05:05 PM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
It was never designed for Rapid charging - it already copes with Fast charging (and even calls it 'accelerated'). Where did you find any negativity about the Fluence? If it is only about the lack of Rapid charging, then it wasn't missold - it didn't supposedly need it due to the battery swap process, that failed wherever it was tried.

The chances of upgrading just won't fly - the wiring cannot handle it, and the battery lease prevents you from going the DIY route until the battery is yours.

As for other EV's, they are just runabouts - EUp and Leaf are boxes on wheels, yes they may support Chademo for rapid charging, but that standard has been discontinued in favour of CCS, so a lot of EV users will e hacked off when they cannot rapid charge due to the tethered leads being removed!

pauldb38 08-13-2015 04:39 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
The negativity is there saying you can't do this can't do that without even trying, if the diy community can take a petrol car and convert it to electric with fast charging why not the fluence most of the hard work is done for you, comments like the fluence will be dead in a few years etc etc and the fact that already many ev forums don't even mention the fluence etc.

At the end of the day the fluence is a beautiful car and i don't actually see many ev's that match it in looks or comfort. I am a fluence supporter which is a good positive thing.

Paul.

ElectricDave 08-13-2015 07:07 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
I don't suppose it will be practical for European owners to do anything but given that the Korean SM3 which is basically the same car does reportedly have rapid charging, would the physical changes be that problematical? If the change has already been done officially, I'm guessing all the parts exist somewhere. Heaven knows what changes would need to be made to the car's various systems, though.

Buzby 08-13-2015 07:58 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
I've BTDT with my electric bike (Vectrix) - Support groups launched upgrade paths from Ni-Cad cells to Ni-Li packs, in addition to the battery swap, you needed a new on board charger (at 800-odd) the cell packs and a firmware update from a homebrew supplier. There are already stories of two users with bricked bikes due to the firmware upload failing. I doubt the Fluence will be much different - apart from having to run a new loom of HT wiring for a CCS socket, all this assumes you get the support from a knowlegable source - that won't be coming from Renault!

Faced with a working car with no Rapid charging, and potentially bricking it leaving it only of use for spares, I have no interest in changing what works, its not as if it will make the car do more. You mistake negativty for caution... that's a whole different ballgame. I like my car too much to risk frying it prematurely - and if you don't have an inrush controller in your toolkit, I wouldn't even bother.

ElectricDave 08-13-2015 11:54 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
Yes, I broadly agree. I basically accept the Fluence for what it is - a brilliant car that has a small (for me) limitation in the form of a lack of rapid charging. Even if there was a solution out there I probably wouldn't entertain the likely cost/risk.

That said, it is interesting to speculate and the fact that there is basically the same car out there which appears to be more or less identical but for the incorporation of rapid charging, makes it quite a tantalising question. I wonder if one day second-hand SM3s might make it to the UK as cheap imports? How great would that be if they came batteries included (I have no idea whether Samsung sell the car outright or with a battery lease in Korea)? LHD might make imports less likely I suppose.

That said, I don't find the Fluence's charging speeds so desperately bad when hooked up to a proper Mennekes Type 2 socket at 7kW at home or at a public charging station. Well at least not compared with the three-pin lead alternative!

Buzby 08-14-2015 05:18 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
In over 18 months I've never regretted there not being a Rapid option, only that it might be 'nice' - nothing more. And seeing the angst surrounding broken or blocked Rapid chargepoints, thats a whole new level of anxiety denied us.... so another plus! :)

pauldb38 08-14-2015 06:13 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
For say 95% of the time overnight charge is ideal for me, but it would be nice to have a faster way of charging for those rare longer runs, One thing i don't know why ev designers don't think of generating energy on the move ie like a alternator that says trickle charges the battery's bit like the regen braking does? I read a very good article on range extending on the fluence, this involved a honda generator although it works it kinda defeats the object as the generator was powered by petrol. But the fluence or any ev for that matter already generates the movement so attaching a generator that took force from the ev would make more sense ? Loving the fluence though xxx

beaty68 08-14-2015 09:28 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
[...]range extending on the fluence, this involved a honda generator although it works it kinda defeats the object as the generator was powered by petrol.

So the petrol is the additional, highly concentrated energy you got on board, besides the electric energy in the battery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
But the fluence or any ev for that matter already generates the movement so attaching a generator that took force from the ev would make more sense ?

NO, that would make no sense at all. Cause the amount of energy you got from the generator is smaller than the additional energy you have to feed to the motor due to the additional generator load. Overall efficiency of inverter-motor-generator-inverter is smaller than 100%, whereas the perpetuum mobile we'd need to make this configuration work needed to have an overall efficiency >=100%. Which is not possible unfortunately.

So it would merely be an expensive "range reducer" in the end (that's the reason nobody does it btw ;-)

pauldb38 08-14-2015 12:06 PM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beaty68
Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
[...]range extending on the fluence, this involved a honda generator although it works it kinda defeats the object as the generator was powered by petrol.

So the petrol is the additional, highly concentrated energy you got on board, besides the electric energy in the battery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
But the fluence or any ev for that matter already generates the movement so attaching a generator that took force from the ev would make more sense ?

NO, that would make no sense at all. Cause the amount of energy you got from the generator is smaller than the additional energy you have to feed to the motor due to the additional generator load. Overall efficiency of inverter-motor-generator-inverter is smaller than 100%, whereas the perpetuum mobile we'd need to make this configuration work needed to have an overall efficiency >=100%. Which is not possible unfortunately.

So it would merely be an expensive "range reducer" in the end (that's the reason nobody does it btw ;-)

No this has been done i think the overall range with the honda generator and a fluence was about 350 miles.


Buzby 08-14-2015 04:52 PM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
The Fluence was designed from scratch as a 'battery swap' model. Sure, it collapsed like a lead baloon in the countries it was tried in, but that was reasoning behind the development - and to be honest, it is one part of the engineering that was slick and we just don't see it - have a look on You Tube for the video on how battery swap worked.... it is hard not to be impressed.

So with swapping denied us, we go for next best, which is Fast Charging - so that's the limit of the advancement, anything else will be a compronise!

ElectricDave 08-14-2015 07:19 PM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
At least the fact that the Fluence was originally designed as a battery swapper should mean it's easy to exchange the battery should that become necessary...

Buzby 08-15-2015 06:22 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
I saw it done - and not using the dedicated battery lift conveyor! there are 4 locking bolts that are turned to release the pack and the contacts between the pack and the car are purely contact-based.... no physical requirement to spanner in a connector and tighten it. The issue is you either lift the car, and find some way to support the battery as it is lowered out of the way, or use the below-ground method where a smaller battery lift unlocks the bolts and takes it down into a pit... just as the Battery Swap stations did. The swap I saw was the former, and looked precarious as a trolley was found to place under the pack as the rest of the car was raised to leave it behind. The replacement went in the same way, but centering it took some time in order to prevent damage to the battery mount. Easy when the automated system does it, but really complex without.

There is also some firmware to tell the car the battery is being swapped (not the Better Places front end) but I don't know how this is activated as it was done before I saw the process start.

ElectricDave 08-15-2015 07:52 AM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
Interesting. I vaguely remember being told by someone at Renault around the time of the Fluence's launch that if, say, a mini-cab firm had shown an interest they could probably have kitted them out with the required set up to swap the battery themselves, although this was all completely speculative/theoretical in the context of a general chat. I'm not sure whether it would have been quite so viable if they'd looked into it in more detail!

I'm assuming that even if such a capability had been available, it would have been easier most of the time to charge the car rather than swap the battery, but the battery swap might be a bit of a life-saver if an important job came in late in the working day.

Buzby 08-15-2015 02:53 PM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
If you find the Better Places video, I recall there was one scene with a battery on a yellow scissors-type trolley on wheels and (I assume) this would take the grunt out of locating and inserting the pack..... BUT, wouldn't you need two of them - to despatch the empty battery and install the replacement? Logistics apart, the least-worst option would really be to charge it, as it would take me around the recharge time simply to swap them over! Clearly, a swap dictated by capacity or battery fault conditions, not simply a lack of juice.

Still, a swap with the BT system was certainly faster than a Rapid charge!

Heliguy 10-17-2015 03:02 PM

RE: Light bulb moment
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
Quote:

Originally Posted by beaty68
Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
[...]range extending on the fluence, this involved a honda generator although it works it kinda defeats the object as the generator was powered by petrol.

So the petrol is the additional, highly concentrated energy you got on board, besides the electric energy in the battery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldb38
But the fluence or any ev for that matter already generates the movement so attaching a generator that took force from the ev would make more sense ?

NO, that would make no sense at all. Cause the amount of energy you got from the generator is smaller than the additional energy you have to feed to the motor due to the additional generator load. Overall efficiency of inverter-motor-generator-inverter is smaller than 100%, whereas the perpetuum mobile we'd need to make this configuration work needed to have an overall efficiency >=100%. Which is not possible unfortunately.

So it would merely be an expensive "range reducer" in the end (that's the reason nobody does it btw ;-)

No this has been done i think the overall range with the honda generator and a fluence was about 350 miles.

Would you have a link to more info about this?



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